Turns over, won't start

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B-Co Kid

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1987 ford bronco fullsize 351w holley 570 street avenger. Was running fine. Took it for a drive around the block, put a little bit of gas in the tank 93 octane, like always. no problems on the short drive back to the house. Pulled into the driveway, put it in park and hit the gas aggressively to hear the big dawg roar, and it went dead. will not start back up. The engine turns over, but will not start. Any suggestions as to why?? im out of guesses!!

 

Bronc76

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Have you determined that you are not getting fuel or no spark?

 

Bully Bob

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Hi B-Co., great signature BTW.!

Yep., like 76 says., there's 3 things you need... air., fuel., & sparkie..!

Do your initial tests; look for spark, shoot starter fluid down the air horn.

No more guesses.... :unsure:

 
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B-Co Kid

B-Co Kid

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I've only tried spraying starter fluid in carb. That didn't work. How do I test if I'm getting spark? How do I check if it is the fuel pump?? It's a mechanical fuel pump by the way..

 

Bully Bob

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If the fuel pump is working, it will have kept the fuel bowl full. With key off., move the throttle while looking down the air horn. You should see raw fuel squirting fr. the nozzle(s).

When fuel pumps fail, they will leak fuel fr. the "weep-hole" (bottpm of pump).., but still supply enough fuel to run the eng. (for a while)

If it wouldn't start on starting fluid spray then;

Pull a plug wire & place a phillips screwdriver in the wire cup where the plug was. Hold the plastic handle while holding the metal shaft close/near eng. block or anything ground. Have someone crank the eng. Watch/listen for a good spark.

ALSO, while under hood with eng. cranking:

Keep any appendages, body parts., clothing away from anything that moves or else... :((

 
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B-Co Kid

B-Co Kid

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Great info!! Thanks! One more question, if there is not a good spark, should I assume the distributor is bad, or could something else cause an inadequate spark

 

Krafty

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coil, plugs, wires, cap and rotor can all cause bad spark. or lack of spark. a good way to test a mechanical fuel pump is to disconnect it from the carb and put a bowl under the end and have someone crank the engine a little bit, fuel should be gushing out, if the bowl was clean then you just pour it back into your tank and reconnect the fuel line.

another good way to check for spark is to take a good spare plug and put it in the end of one of the wires, it just needs to rest on some metal part of the engine and again you just look for a bright blue arc, if that's a no go then you can plug it right into the wire off the coil and check for spark again.

that will tell you if your distributor is getting enough juice and narrow down the sources of the problem.

 
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B-Co Kid

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ok, so i depressed the throttle several times, thinking it may be the fuel pump. gas sprayed as it was supposed to. i decided to try cranking again. I turned the engine over and...wah lah! the b-co fired up. a very very little bit of white smoke initially, but other than that, everything seems fine. is this a sign of something that may be failing on my rig?? my only guess is that it may have been flooded, but the engine was running fine before it spontaneously stalled. i dont know where to start diagnosing the problem, or should i not be concerned??

p.s. i am concerned though!!

 

Bully Bob

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"p.s. i am concerned though!!"

As you should be...

"should I assume the distributor is bad"

Well., not the whole dizzy..., the stator inside can fail., however rare.

"or could something else cause an inadequate spark"

Yep.., the coil &/or the ignition module.

Some of the better auto parts stores can test the coil for you. (Ohms)

If/when it acts up again..., do the spark test.

Also: M5 may have a page showing the test for the module.

I've had a module fail on my Zcar & a coil fail on my EB. both had similar symptoms.

P.S. Do check for loose/corroded wires at the coil/module. could be something that simple.

 
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miesk5

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yo,

No Start, but Cranks and or Misfire, etc.; Thick Film Ignition (TFI) Testing, Overview & Diagrams; "...

Part I; In This Fast Test you'll be able to pinpoint the problem to the Ignition Control Module or the Ignition Coil or the Profile Ignition Pickup Sensor (PIP Sensor) in four easy test steps. This test will only help you in a Cranks but Does Not Start Condition. So then, before starting the tests, it's critical that you have checked and verified that there's NO SPARK present at the Ignition Coil. Why? Well, because if the Ignition Coil is sparking, it would be a clear indication that it and the Ignition Coil and the Crankshaft Position Sensor (PIP Sensor), if equipped, are working.

This article applies to both the Gray colored Ignition Control Module and the Black colored Ignition Control Module. The Gray colored Ignition Control Module is called the Push Start Module and the Black colored Ignition Control Module is called the Computer Controlled Dwell Module. These ignition control modules are not interchangeable. If you need the tests for the Ford Fender Mounted Ignition Control Module (ICM), click here.

How Does the Ignition Control Module Work? Here's a little background information to help you diagnose this no spark condition. In a nutshell, when the system is working properly, at CRANK-UP and at all engine speeds, the Ignition Control Module controls the Ignition Coil. How? This is primarily done thru' the Profile Ignition Pickup Sensor Signal which is received by the Ignition Control Module (and also the ECM). The Ignition Control Module (ICM) upon receiving this signal, starts switching the Ignition Coil's Ground On and Off. As you may already know, it's this action that makes the Ignition Coil spark away. The Profile Ignition Pickup Sensor signal (more commonly called the PIP Signal) is critical for the Ignition Control Module to start sparking the Ignition Coil at START UP and at all engine speeds. The Profile Ignition Pickup Sensor is a Hall Effect type Crankshaft Position Sensor and produces a digital (On/Off) signal that can be seen with an LED or an oscilloscope. On an oscilloscope, it produces a digital square waveform. This sensor is located in the Distributor.

What Tools do I Need for the Ignition Module Test? There are several ways to test this Ignition Control Module. An oscilloscope is the best way to check all of the input and output signals but it's not the only way. I'll show you just how. Anyway, if you have access to an oscilloscope, I have included photos of what the waveforms should look like. Whether you use a multimeter or an Oscilloscope, you'll be able to successfully diagnose this NO START CONDITION! So, here's the basic list: An LED Light. Test Light. Multimeter. A cheapie one will do. Repair Manual. For whatever other information this article does not cover. Helper. To help you crank the engine while you observe the LED light (or Test Light or Multimeter). By the way, you don't need an Automotive Scan Tool for any of these tests. We'll first check for the basics like Battery voltage and Engine Ground to the Ignition Control Module. Then we'll test the Ignition Coil Switching Signal that the Module generates in action and from the results you get you'll be able to pinpoint the problem to the Ignition Control Module (ICM) or the Ignition Coil or the Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) Sensor or completely eliminate these as the cause of the No Start Condition.

IMPORTANT- All of the tests are ON CAR TESTS, do not remove the Ignition Control Module Assembly from the vehicle (all of the figures show the Module Assembly off of the vehicle but this is just for illustration purposes only). Also, the Battery must be in a fully charged condition for all tests in this article.

And lastly, this Fast Test only tests for a NO SPARK / No Start Condition. TEST INFO Circuit Descriptions; Here are brief descriptions of the circuits that we'll be testing. You'll notice that there are no wire color descriptions. This is intentional. The color of the wires in the illustration will not match the ones on your vehicle. The good news is that no matter what color the wires are (on the vehicle), the circuit descriptions DO NOT CHANGE. You will be able to successfully diagnose this NO START CONDITION with this information.

IMPORTANT- It will be necessary to test some of these circuits while the engine is being cranked. Be careful, use common sense and take all necessary safety precautions. Ignition Control Module Connector; 1- Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) Signal. 2- Spout. 3- 12 V at START. 4- 12 Volts (gray module) or IDM circuit (black module). 5- Ignition Coil Control Signal. 6- Ground. TEST 1 Checking for Power (12 V); We'll begin by checking that the Ignition Control Module is receiving 12 volts. I recommend using a wire piercing probe to accomplish all of the tests in this article. (click here to see a picture of this tool). Whatever method you use, the key here is to be careful. Remember to use common sense and take all safety precautions.

IMPORTANT- The Ignition Coil, Ignition Control Module and the PIP Sensor receive 12 Volts from the same circuit. So if you test one, you test the others. 1 Put the multimeter in VOLTS DC mode. 2 It's not necessary to disconnect the Ignition Control Module (ICM). You'll probe the number 4 circuit of the Ignition Control Module Connector. 3 With the RED multimeter test lead and a suitable tool, probe the number 4 circuit wire of the Connector. 4 With the BLACK lead of the multimeter probe the BATT (-) NEGATIVE terminal. 5 Turn Key On with the Engine Off. Your Multimeter should register 12 Volts DC. CASE 1 If the Multimeter registered 12 Volts DC, All is good in the neighborhood,

GO TO TEST 2. CASE 2 If the Multimeter DID NOT register 12 Volts DC, You must find out why you're missing this voltage. Without this voltage the Module, Ignition Coil, and the PIP Sensor will not work. TEST 2 Testing the Ground Circuit; Here we'll check that the Ignition Control Module (ICM) is receiving a good GROUND. This is done thru' the number 6 circuit of the Igntion Module Connector. 1 Put the multimeter in VOLTS DC mode. 2. With the BLACK multimeter test lead and a wire piercing probe, probe the Ignition Module Connector's number 6 circuit wire. 3 With the RED lead of the multimeter probe the BATT (+) POSITIVE terminal. Your Multimeter should register 12 Volts DC. CASE 1 If the Multimeter registered 12 Volts DC, All is good in the neighborhood, GO TO TEST 3. CASE 2 If the Multimeter DID NOT register 12 Volts DC, This means there is open in this circuit. Without this ground the Ignition Module will not function. Repair the circuit.

TEST 3 Ignition Coil Switching Signal; Now that you have verified the basics, in this test you're gonna' verify that the Ignition Control Module (ICM) is activating the Ignition Coil. Here you're going to use an LED test tool. Click here for a picture of this tool and how to make it. You can also use a Test Light for this test. Use an appropriate tool to pierce the wire and attach the LED test tool (to this tool). Be careful and use all necessary precautions. By the way, in case you want to see a more specific Ford Ignition Coil test, I’ve written one for troubleshootmyvehicle.com and you can seeit here: Ford Ignition Coil Test.

1 Connect the RED wire of the LED to the Battery Positive Terminal.

2 Connect the BLACK wire of the LED to the number 5 circuit of the Ignition Control Module Connector

3 Have an assistant crank the engine. the LED test tool (or Test Light) should blink on and off as the engine is being cranked. Did this occur? CASE 1 The LED Light blinked On and Off as the engine was cranking, This means that the Ignition Control Module is triggering the Ignition Coil. So then, the Ignition Control Module is good and can been eliminated as the cause of the NO START condition. By a process of elimination, we can assume that the Ignition Coil is faulty and is the source of the NO START condition. Replace the Ignition Coil.

CASE 2 The LED Light DID NOT blink On and Off as the engine was cranking, Re-check all of your connections and retry the test again. If still no light pulses on the test LED, GO TO TEST 4.

TEST 4 Testing the PIP Signal; Here we'll check that the Profile Ignition Pickup Sensor (PIP) is being received by the Ignition Control Module (ICM). The PIP Signal is just Ford’s name for the Crankshaft Position Sensor Signal. Now, in case you’re wondering... the PIP Sensor is located inside the Distributor. This will be achieved by using the same LED test tool. Click here for a picture of this LED tool and how to make it.

Do not use a Test Light for this test; With a suitable tool and with the key in the Off position, pierce the number 1 circuit wire of the Ignition Control Module Connector. Connect the BLACK wire of LED to the tool that is piercing the wire. Connect the RED wire of the LED to the BATTERY (+) POSITIVE terminal. Have an assistant crank the engine while you observe the LED. The LED should start to blink on and off as the engine is cranked. Is the LED blinking on and off as the engine is cranked? CASE 1 If the LED blinked On and OFF as your helper cranked the engine The Ignition Control Module (ICM) is BAD. Replace the Ignition Control Module. Here’s why: As you’re already aware, the Ignition Control Module needs:

1.) power in the form of 12 Volts.

2.) It needs a good path to ground.

3.) It needs the PIP Signal to start creating the Switching Signal the Ignition Coil needs to start sparking. So, up until this point (in the testing) you have verified that the module does have power, that it does have ground and that it’s not creating a Switching Signal for the Ignition Coil. In this step you have confirmed that the PIP Sensor is generating a PIP Signal (as indicated by a blinking LED light). So, if the Ign. Module is getting power, ground and the PIP Signal (as evidenced by the blinking LED) is has to create a Switching Signal... if it doesn’t, it’s fried. CASE 2 The LED DID NOT blink On and OFF as your helper cranked the engine If you have no pulses, recheck all connections. Try again. If you still have no pulses. The Profile Ignition Pickup Sensor (PIP) is BAD and the cause of this NO START condition. You’ll need to replace the PIP Sensor to solve the No Start No Spark Condition on your Ford (or Mercury or Lincoln) vehicle. As mentioned earlier, the Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) Sensor is just a Crankshaft Position Sensor located inside the Distributor. This is the Sensor that tells the Ignition Control Module (ICM) when to start activating the Ignition Coil to start Sparking away. So, if this PIP Signal is missing (as indicated by the LED not blinking on and off), the Ignition Control Module will not function..." SEE Site for Diagrams

Spark Tester, DIY; W/ an old spark plug and cut off the L-shaped tip,& clean up the center electrode and surrounding metal with a bit of sandpaper. Drill a small hole in the thickest part of the metal (where the wrench goes on). Use a metal ***** to attach a length of wire, a couple of feet, to the body of the spark plug. To the other end of the wire, solder or otherwise attach a big alligator clip. Since the tip is cut off, the spark will have to be stronger to jump the wider gap. It is harder for a spark to form in a compressed cylinder so it more accurately represents the spark performance under running conditions. With the engine off, remove the spark plug wire you wish to test from the spark plug. Attach the spark tester to the plug wire and connect the alligator clip to a good ground. Remember that the coil output can give you a very nasty shock, so make sure to wear thick gloves or use a rag to hold the tester, and not to touch the body of the car when the system is energized. Hold the tester away from the car body and use your remote starter switch or have an assistant start the car (or simply turn it over). You should get a healthy bluish white spark from the center post to the side of the spark tester. COIL; If your coil is already off the Bronco, you can bench test your coil. To set up the test, remove one spark plug wire from its plug, then remove the spark plug using a spark plug socket. Next put the spark plug back into the spark plug wire. Be careful not to let anything drop into the empty spark plug hole. Holding the plug wire with insulated pliers, find a spot on the engine that is a good and easily accessible grounding point. Pretty much any exposed metal, including the engine itself, will do. Holding the spark plug wire with your pliers, touch the threaded portion of the spark plug to the grounding point. Have somebody crank the engine with the key, and look for a bright blue spark to jump across the spark plug gap. If you see a nice, bright spark (clearly visible in daylight) your coil is doing its job.

 
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B-Co Kid

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Great info miesk, but does all of this apply to my application. My b-co was not equipped with the ECM. And it has the duraspark system so im not sure if that's the TFI or not. Seems like checking voltage @ the coil and duraspark control module would be a good idea though

 

Rons beast

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M5 is a treasure trove of information. I can see how it may seem daunting to go through all the steps he proposes. However if your problem is intermittent, all the checks may show items ok because they are not failing when tested.

Here are my thoughts. When this happens again check for fuel, by looking down the carb and watching for the accelerator pumps to squirt when the throtle is opened. Do this a few times. If there is a good stream of fuel, you can rule out the fuel pump. If it was bad it would show up at high speed, by not being able to supply enough fuel to keep the fuel bowls supplying the jets. In a carb delivery and not preasure are important.

Check for spark. If no spark do the checks as Krafty outlined above.

By the time you do all the tests the problem may be gone and the truck will start. This is when you pull your hair out.....or....look at the parts that are historically noted for causing these problems.

My thoughts: If it is old, change it. I would for security and peace of mind. You have alot of good new parts on the engine and drivetrain. You may as well make the rest reliable, as your budget will allow.

1- ECM...known to be an intermittent problem causer.

2- distributer stator...same

3- coil.....if it's old as the truck change it. Don't even bother to test it.

4- check all the wires to the coil, distributer, ECM, battery and grounds, grounds from battery to body, bat to frame, and bat to engine. Repair anything that even makes you think it's worn.

The truck is 25 years old. Many and engine dies cause the support structure is week.

Hope this helps.

good luck

 
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B-Co Kid

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Thanks Ron. So far it seems to be running fine, unfortunately most of the info posted is for the typical rigs, and apparently I have a rare one.. Which is cool in one regard, but a pain in the ****. I did try the tests that were suggested, but it was by trial and error. I have the duraspark II system carb'd application without the ECM. This was how it came from the factory. When testing the control module and coil (or at least attempting to), I found that the LED gadget (thanks miesk), did turn off and on when cranking the engine. This was with positive alligator clamp in the green wire @ the icm and the negative clamp on the negative battery terminal. It was more like a flicker when cranking, then turned fully on once the engine started. I'm hoping this is the same as miesk described. Unfortunately, I couldn't go by miesk suggestion of circuit 1 or circuit 5 etc, because that applies to TFI systems with duraspark III systems, according to my Haynes. My application only has 4 circuits @ the ICM. As of now, my only option is to wait and see if it happens again. I will, however, be replacing the coil as Ron suggests bcuz it is the original coil (I know, I know)! But if anyone has a 87 setup like mine, please post more info bcuz it seems to be a split year with very limited repair resources.

 

Krafty

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in 87 the 351 was available in carb while the 4.9 and 5.0's were both efi.

I would go by the Haynes manual, a cheap (analog)multi meter is a good tool to have and can be used for any number of things, if you get an analog meter you will see the needle "sweep" when doing flicker tests like on your coil, or testing your signals, digital multi meters just cant keep up with the signal reading and displays.

 

Rons beast

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My bad, when I said ECM, I ment the module on the dist. I'm old school ECM= electronic control module (ignition), not engine control module (computer). sorry.

And again all the tests can show things are working, because they ARE while being tested. If the module and pick up (stator) are old, I would change them.

Final thought....with headers and dual exhaust, check that the pipes are not too close to the fuel line. I encountered a rare problem like yours where an exhaust pipe was heating the fuel line, and when it was snaking through the engine bay and over the manifold it got more heat, and the fuel would percolate when the engine was shut off, and going through a heat soak. or when it idled for a long time.

Sounds like a cool truck, post some pics.

Good Luck

 
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miesk5

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yo,

I completely mixed you up with another person here who has the TFI issues;

so,

Duraspark 2 Troubleshooting

compare wiring AND COLORS W/

Duraspark 2 Wiring Diagram

duraspark-ii-schematic.jpg

Source: by Seattle FSB (SeattleFSB) at SuperMotors.net

and/or

Overview, Wiring Diagram, Conversions, Durapark 2; "...Duraspark II electronic ignition was used on 1977 to 1984 Ford V-8 passenger car and light truck engines. This article refers to the Duraspark II control module with a BLUE strain relief bushing, one 4-pin connector, and one 2-pin connector. Another version of the system has an additional 3-pin wiring connector, and two YELLOW strain relief bushings..."

Source: by The Ford V-8 Engine Workshop http://www.wrljet.com/fordv8/duraspark.html

 
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B-Co Kid

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Photo shoot with the B-Co, minus wheels and tires..and plus superlift dual steering stabilizer

IMG_5051.JPGIMG_5050.JPGIMG_5049.JPGIMG_5053.JPGIMG_5054.JPGIMG_5059.JPGIMG_5056.JPG

 

Krafty

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most picture software even, Microsoft paint has the option to resize pictures and then you can save them as a different file to keep your huge originals if you want.

if you keep your high res photos some printing places can make posters out of them for you. I might do that with my Plymouth when its finished.

 
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