Really loud starter.

[broncodev435]

i have a 1983 ford bronco with a high horsepower 351w that was built for me. It comes complete with a c6 transmission. Ive had this rig for about four years and have taken it in to get checked out but nobody seems to know a damn thing around here. Heres my problem. My starter is a brand new starter and so is my flywheel but for the life of me they are really loud when i turn the key. I have tried shims, putting a new flywheel in and going through numerous starters thinking that maybe is wasnt the "right" match. Im out of ideas and if you guys can help it would be much appreciated cause to be honest, this is the last place im checking before i just accept the fact. thanks again

 

[miesk5]

yo,

Have other starters and or flywheels been damaged over the course of their life in your Bronco? What brands are you buying?

Here are a few random Links for you to look @ and decide what may be a clue that requires further investigation, testing or discussions.

Slow Cranking or a Grinding Noise; "... Problems with the negative battery cable is a major cause of starting problems in Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury vehicles. Bad battery cables can cause slow cranking or a grinding noise when trying to start an engine. On some late model vehicles dating back to 1994, the wire connection inside the battery terminal connector corrodes easily. This will cause a voltage drop in the cable and result in low voltage being supplied to the starter. You can check for voltage drop in the cable using a digital voltmeter. Connect the negative probe of the voltmeter to the negative battery post (not the battery terminal connector). Then connect the positive probe to the starter case and crank the engine. The voltage reading should be less than .5 volts. A higher reading means there is resistance in the cable or the battery terminal connector. Clean the cable end and the battery terminal connector and test again. If the voltage reading is still higher than .5 volts, replace the cable and the battery terminal connector..." http://www.genco1.com/tech_tip_details.cfm?id=78

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"...Why are the cables and battery so important? The starter circuit pulls a lot of amperage, up to 500 amps depending on the starter, the engine load, and battery condition. This kind of amperage stresses all of the components in the starter circuit, including the battery, battery terminals, the battery disconnect switch, the cables including the ground path, and any remote solenoids. Problems with these components are hard to find because they appear fine at rest or under a light load, but generate high resistance under heavy amperage draws. The result will be low voltage to the starter during cranking, resulting in heavier amperage draw and increased internal heat in the starter. Over time, this will cause starter failure. Voltage measured at the starter during cranking should always be above 9.5VDC..."

Source: by powermastermotorsports

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/faq-starter.html

Also in the Link are; Pinion does not retract when it is released & Pinion Tips cut off after a few months

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Drives, Exploded, Ford 2 bolt type, Shims needed due to worn ****** bearings in engine; "...This condition is the result of the drive engaging too deeply into the flywheel. The face of the drive is rubbing on the flywheel and gradually cutting into the cover that holds the drive together. Eventually, it cuts through and the drive comes apart. The damage is not caused by a problem with the starter. It is because the flywheel is floating as a result of worn ****** bearings, located inside the engine block, whose function is to keep the crankshaft centered. This wear can be enough to cause starter and ring gear engagement problems on an engine with 60,000 or more miles. It might take a long time to destroy the original starter, but when a new unit is installed, the drive can be quickly destroyed. Therefore, it is important to properly diagnose this problem when inspecting the customers original core rather than providing him a replacement unit. Shims are availalbe from OCA, part number F.S.S.2B

Source: by mrreman.com via web.archive.org

http://web.archive.org/web/20030720005456/http://mrreman.com/downloadsgateway/FORD/MRTSB-FORD-011.htm

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[broncodev435]

Its really great advice but ive tried everything you described could be wrong. Ive tried every brand that i could find locally for my bronco. As with the flywheel i just bought a generic flexplate from napa. I changed out all the battery cables thinking it could be low amperage then i tried shimming but that didnt work. I then switched to having a new flexplate installed and after that it started nice and quiet for about 6 cranks and then continued to be noisy and grinding like... I took the whole rig to a professional and had them install of fresh engine with all new equipment thinking i might have fixed the unidentifiable problem. The problem still occurs and im thinking that it just might have to be the way it is. Any other similar problems you've heard of like this?

 

[miesk5]

yo

That is a shame; esp since you had the engine bought & installed and all that $.

I've seen others post Qs exactly like your prob about noise; destroyed pinions, and tips

Recently Brian, mechanic at justanswer.com addressed this issue again; I just found this yesterday; he added to the original inof he posted a few years ago

Pinion to Ring Gear Clearance Info; "...If the ****** bearing for the crankshaft is worn enough, there will be excessive endplay, which means the crankshaft and everything bolted to it will move forward and rearward a small amount. This can affect the meshing of the gear teeth because the flywheel may be moving enough to let the edges of the teeth get worn down until the teeth are ground off on the edges and no longer catch. The starter would spin but not engage. Look carefully at the wear pattern on the old starter teeth and compare it with a new unit. The wear pattern should be on the meaty center part of the gear, minimizing the wear to the edges. To check the crankshaft endplay with precision requires a dial indicator rigged to measure the fore and aft free movement of the crankshaft. Take the belt/s off the crankshaft pulley and see if it seems to move too much in and out when you push in and pull out on the crankshaft pulley. To repair a worn ****** bearing requires some serious effort. I am not sure if you are willing to do all that, some people install HELP! brand starter shims to space the starter further away from the flywheel, but this is more for concerns where the starter fails to disengaged. There is a difference between the manual transmission and automatic starters, so make sure you get the right one. Some auto parts stores may have incorrect listings Also check the thin metal sheet that the starter inserts through for distortion of the hole, which can cause misalignment. There is a shoulder on the starter that needs to engage the edge of the hole in the sheet metal evenly. This helps ensure the starter sits squarely so it lines up.

Drives, Exploded, Ford 2 bolt type, Shims needed due to worn ****** bearings in engine; This condition is the result of the drive engaging too deeply into the flywheel. The face of the drive is rubbing on the flywheel and gradually cutting into the cover that holds the drive together. Eventually, it cuts through and the drive comes apart. The damage is not caused by a problem with the starter. It is because the is floating as a result of worn ****** bearings, located inside the engine block, whose function is to keep the crankshaft centered. This wear can be enough to cause starter and ring gear engagement problems on an engine with 60,000 or more miles. It might take a long time to destroy the original starter, but when a new unit is installed, the drive can be quickly destroyed. Therefore, it is important to properly diagnose this problem when inspecting the customers original core rather than providing him a replacement unit. Shims are availalbe from OCA, part number F.S.S.2B; Shims; Tilton Engineering 54-958 Brand: Tilton Engineering Product Line: Tilton Starter Shims Part Type: Starter Shim Kits Part Number: TIL-54-958 Shim Material: Steel Starter Bolts Included: Yes Quantity: Sold as a kit. "...These Tilton starter shims are a must when installing a starter. You'll need these shims to ensure proper gap between the starter and flywheel..." thus Tilton shows this Pinion to Ring Gear Cearance Info & DiagramI hope this helps to show what can happen.

I own a 1988 F-150, and it has 245,000 miles. I replaced the original starter about 4 years ago and have had good results since. I have not checked endplay, but have heard of people with up to an inch of endplay where there should be a just a small amount of play. When obtaining a replacement starter, get one from a smaller local rebuilder that specializes in alternators and starters (check yellow pages or web). These smaller shops handle rebuilds with more care and in general, they tend to use better quality parts than the mass rebuilders that supply the chain stores. They are also good to talk to in a case like this since they have seen so many failed starters..."

Source: by Brian at justanswer.com

In fact, Brian copied my site's info including the "Source: by mrreman.com via web.archive.org"...

Pinion to Ring Gear Clearance Info; "...When installing the Permanent Magnet Starter, the relationship between the pinion and ring gear is important. Due to the starter's high operating torque, damage to the pinion and ring gear will occur if the recommended clearance is out of spec. The clearance will typically be in spec if you are using the correct starter for your application. There is a much greater chance of having clearance problems if you have a modified flywheel, ring gear, bellhousing or crankshaft. Tilton Engineering Product Line: Tilton Starter Shims Part Type: Starter Shim Kits Part Number: TIL-54-958 Shim Material: Steel Starter Bolts Included: Yes Quantity: Sold as a kit. "...These Tilton starter shims are a must when installing a starter. You'll need these shims to ensure proper gap between the starter and flywheel..." thus Tilton shows this Pinion to Ring Gear Cearance Info & DiagramI hope this helps to show what can happen. I own a 1988 F-150, and it has 245,000 miles. I replaced the original starter about 4 years ago and have had good results since. I have not checked endplay, but have heard of people with up to an inch of endplay where there should be a just a small amount of play. When obtaining a replacement starter, get one from a smaller local rebuilder that specializes in alternators and starters (check yellow pages or web). These smaller shops handle rebuilds with more care and in general, they tend to use better quality parts than the mass rebuilders that supply the chain stores. They are also good to talk to in a case like this since they have seen so many failed starters..." Source: by Tilton Engineering

not much help tho, sorry.

Have you ever taken it to an Automotive Electric Reapir Shop for their opinion?

 

[crazyhorse85]

Just a thought,But when i rebuilt my 351w i bored it 0.40 over and used a generic flywheel from autozone(I know shame shame).Got the engine reinstalled and the first couple of spins of the starter was fine.Then it got louder and every so often would grind.Figured it was the starter and

change it also tried about ten before i started thinking maybe it's the flywheel.I tried another flywheel this time advance(I know twice shamed)Being that i work for a ford dealership you would think i wouldn't buy offbrand but i did trying to save money.I check part#'s on the starters there is a difference between 302 and 351w starters.302 will work on 351w but if they have high compression it causes the smaller starter to work harder so the 351w starter is like the heavyduty version of the 302 starter.Also there is a 1/16th or 1/8 of an in.difference in the motorcraft flywheel and generic plate.You can lay them side by side on a flat level surface and see the difference.I changed mine over to the motorcraft flexplate and starter and have not had problem since with either loud starter and or grinding and without having to shim....Just a thought... B)

 

[george_c]

i have a 1983 ford bronco with a high horsepower 351w that was built for me. It comes complete with a c6 transmission. Ive had this rig for about four years and have taken it in to get checked out but nobody seems to know a damn thing around here. Heres my problem. My starter is a brand new starter and so is my flywheel but for the life of me they are really loud when i turn the key. I have tried shims, putting a new flywheel in and going through numerous starters thinking that maybe is wasnt the "right" match. Im out of ideas and if you guys can help it would be much appreciated cause to be honest, this is the last place im checking before i just accept the fact. thanks again

I have this same problem with my 1985 bronco 351w with c-6. The starter screeches / grinds when I start it, the follwoing is the detailed back story:

I bought the truck in Nov 2010. I changed engines in March 2011 for better preformance but the starter made noise with both the original and new engine. The previous owner told me the truck had the flywheel replaced when I bought it. Shortly after buying (Nov 2010) I had the transmission rebuilt, they rebuilt the transmission that was in it and put it back in the vehicle. The transmission I bought with the truck was rebuild not replaced with a rebuilt core. I replaced the orginal 351w ** with a 97 f-250 roller block 351w, this engine is running 9.5:1 compression with edelbrock perfromer rpm heads and intake. Now for the starter details: I replaced the first OEM replacement starter (1) because it was grindings and starting slow. I replaced that starter with a late model ford mini starter from the junkyard (2). It made noise too but I did not have time to change it. The truck is only driven occasionally anyway. So when I swapped engines I changed to a new high torque mini starter from Bronco Grave Yard (3). This one grinded too and broke a tooth on the starter bendix on the third try to start it. I put the Junkyard mini starter back in (2) so I could get the new engine running. The grinding noise got worse so I had a new bendix put on the bronco graveyrad mini starter (3), I installed it and it ground again. I went back to a local Auto Electric Rebuilder and told him my problems and he gave me a starter shim. I tried that and the grinding was the same. Then two weeks ago End of April 2011 the starter and flywheel would not engage. I replaced the flexplate with a napa 164 tooth gear and bought a new advanced auto OEM starter (4). The old flexplate when removed was compared with the NAPA wheel and only the tips approx 1/8 inch was missing from the first flexplate. I installed the new Napa flexplate with the new OEM starter (4) and the grinding was gone for the first few starters than came back. I pulled the OEM starter and checked the wear pattern, for the follwing descussion longitudially will refer to the direction of the drive shaft in the truck (front to back), transverse with be the same direction as the truck axles, passenger side to drivers side. The wear pattern on the bendix of starter (3) and (4) were similar which showed the gear is coming out, and engaging about 1/2" longitudially (half the bendix gear), but only 1/8" tansversly. I tried shimming the starter but this only reduced the longitudial engagement. I replaced the battery cables and starter cable with 1 gage wire, installed in a new battery to body ground, new NAPA battery with the most cold cranking amps available, replaced the fender mounted starter solenoid. I tried jumping the fender soleniod to prove it is not in the key switch and ingnition system. I even tried new starter bolts. Everything I do the situation is still the same first couple starter after a change sound good than back to grinding. I am at a loss and really don't want to replace another flywheel. The locating dowles are in the engine for the tranny and the plate bewteen the two looks straight. Recntly my brother tried adding shims to each side of the starter and appeared to have luck with placing the shims on the passenger side of the starter only but that does not seem to make sense. I think the starter needs to the be closer tranversely to the flywheel but without custom machining a starter I don't know how to accomplish this. A local ford guru told me to elongate the starter hole in the plate between the engine and the tranny and elongate the starter bolt holes. Once englongated, move the starter away from the fexplate so the starter bendix can engage longitudially deeeper in the flexplate. Any suggestions?