Starter issues

[Ben]

Hey guys i know this is a Bronco Site but i hope you can help me out with my F150... its an 1980 F-150 with the straight 6, manual.

The head lights work and it has a newer (holds charge and came out of a running truck) battery. It wont start.

heres the deal buddy bought the truck six months ago and it ran. brought it home parked it for a week and went to start it and it would not start. they replaced the coil, distributer, plugs and wires and it fired right up. they drove it for a few days ran fine. parked it to fix the flat bed on it. went to start it a month later and nothing. they tried roll starting it but still nothing. drug it to new house and left it sit. he called me and we have been working on it all day trying things still nothing.

here is what we tried.

I pulled a good battery from another truck and the relay would just click. slow at first and then gradually it would speed up untill it sounded like a vibrator was strapted to the fender. we tried jumping the terminals using a ***** driver and it just sparks still does not turn starter. so we replaced the relay as well as had the starter tested. (the started tested good but sounded real bad (super loud)). installed new relay, now only clicks once and then stops. still nothing at the starter.

took the old starter in picked up a rebuilt one, had them test it before buying it (tested good). installed new starter still nothing at starter.

at this point I started testing everything i can think of. here is what i have tried so far. we are stuck and out of ideas.

I hand turned the engine and it is not siezed also hand turned the flywheel also not siezed.

pulled coil wire off the distibuter turned key on and have spark.

tested power (with meter) at battery, shows good battery.

tested power on the + side of relay (while hooked up) shows full power.

tested power on the starter wire side of relay (key off) shows no power

tested power on the starter side of relay (key in start position) shows full power.

tested power on the single wire comming from ignition to the relay (has the little cap that plugs onto the little "prong" of the relay (key off) no power

tested power on the single wire comming from ignition to the relay (has the little cap that plugs onto the little "prong" of the relay (key in start position) full power. this tells me that the inline fuse should be good right?

tested power at the end of the starter cable (with key in start position, and it disconnected from the starter) has full power.

tried jumping the relay terminals with a srcew driver and only sparks.

pulled both battery terminals and cleaned them using a cleaner and a wire brush also cleand wire connections. even smeared on some of that grease for spark plug wires.

I have been told that there should be two wires going to the starter but i only have one and cant find a place for a second one on either the old or new starter. we even tried hooking the starter up to a battery with jumper cables and still cant get the starter to spin. any other ideas would be great. like i said it wont turn over at all and you cant even push start it.

Ben

 

[miesk5]

Ben,

OK, is that Relay attached to the metal inner fender liner well and the fender metal clean? That is the Ground ckt for the relay.

because of what was the first and last instances involving da relay; "...pulled a good battery from another truck and the relay would just click. slow at first and then gradually it would speed up untill it sounded like a vibrator was strapted to the fender. we tried jumping the terminals using a ***** driver and it just sparks still does not turn starter..."

Wiring Diagram for 84 Bronco & F-Series; "...Similar to 80-91 Bronco & F-Series..."

Source: by Steve83 http://www.supermotors.net/clubs/superford/registry/media/714912_1

Showing Single cable to starter; looked at Seabronco's diagram too for an 83 and it shows single

http://broncozone.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=6052

 

[shift1313]

The starter circuit is fairly simple so it cant be too many things. The fact that your starter relay is making noise "should" mean that everything before it is working. Most starter relays come with an issolator (plastic base) so you can use it in either a chassis ground setup(single wire) or requiring a ground wire from the second small terminal.

At a first glance it sounds to me like your problem may be in the chassis ground. When you applied a jumper to the starter, where was your ground? Is the ground cable running down to the block/bellhousing. Is the truck auto or manual?

 

[50joe]

Also check the main ground wire to the block. It is on the pass. side of motor, bolted to the lower front of the block. I'm assuming by full power to the starter, you did a voltage drop test? if you have full power to the starter in the crank position, either the starter is messed up, or you dont have a decent ground to the block.

 

[Ben]

miesk5

it is attached to the metal inner fender did not think to check the metal under it.

I knew it only had one wire every diagram i looked at had a single as well thanks for clearing that up for me.

shift1313

I will have to check to see if his has a plastic base and if there is an isolator keeping the nuts from grounding it. might have to just add a ground wire to the second small terminal to be extra sure....?

When we were trying to jump the starter using a battery i attached the positive to the place to attach the cable from the relay and the negative we were just tapping to the starter at the opposite end. Does that make sence?

ground runs from the negaive terminal to the block just behind the A/C bracket.

The truck is a manual.

50joe

We did not do a drop test. i will have to go back and test for drop instead of just current...

Well i guess that gives me some good starting points double check all the grounds and do a drop test to be sure....

 

[shift1313]

I dont think its your problem but dont forget about the clutch switch either. Since your starter relay is doing "something" it would seem the clutch switch is in order but worth checking. These problems can be frustrating.

The starter relay - The screws should be self tapping sheet metal screws going into the fender if i remember right, and they get loose after a few removals, especially when over tightened. the plastic piece would have been on the metal ear where it touches the fender.

If you got a new relay you would have noticed a small piece of paper or plastic cap on one of the small studs. These relays were used on tons of different trucks/cars so they can be used in both configurations(plastic inner fender mounted would require the ground). To test the relay you can apply 12v to one of them and you should hear it click. You might want to pull the line from the battery to the relay.

The two wires to the starter thing would be if either the relay was on the starter or the bendix to drive the gear into the flywheel was powered. Your starter will only have the power lead going to it, and the body grounds to the engine/tranny. That ground is So important though. Hopefully thats your problem.

 

[Ben]

the relay we have does not look like that one... its round with all the terminals on the top and it mounts horizontally (the terminals pointing towards the driver side)

the relay does click when you turn the key (this is the new one).

 

[50joe]

I know exactly what you mean. Thats the newer style, but same basic thing. Just out of curiosity, does it have 2 large posts and one small like the original, or two big and two small?

 

[shift1313]

regardless of shape they all function the same. Ive used several different ones on my trucks. Some from other vehicles and some aftermarket relays for other things.

If the relay activates when you power it up and you get power to the other large lug then the problem is at your starter. Either its bendix is stuck in place, you dont have good power or you dont have good ground. Since you mentioned getting the starter and having it tested i would just double check your leads and make sure you have good clean contact.

 

[Ben]

its 4 terminal style. 2 big 2 small. i plan to do some tinkering on it this weekend so we'll see then i guess.

 

[miesk5]

omore; Starter Relay Wiring pics in an 80 Source: by REDBEAST9 (The Beast) at SuperMotors.net

Starter Relay Ground Wire Addition & Location Video in an 86 Source: by JKossarides ("The Bronco", Jean) at SuperMotors.net

try a jumper for a quick test - Jean did it

 

[Ben]

well got her fixed thanks a bunch for the help. it ended up being the worn out positive cable.