Steering Slop

[monza]

Steering has a few degrees slop either side of neutral.

When I watch the Tie Rod Ends they "rock (or roll)" in the Knuckle joint before they start to pull the wheel.

There is definitely a bushing at each joint.

Tie rod OVER - the tie rod wants to roll up or down before it pulls left / right.

Do I just tighten up the castle nut until there is no wiggle ??

Pic of p.side rod end & p.side linkage attached - note posn of drag link joint.

Thx,

Monza. >-

 

[Bully Bob]

Ahhh..,

Now we're gett'n somewhere..! If the shaft part that goes thru the knuckle hole (with castle nut on it) is wobbling in that hole...it's likely it was not set-up right., or it's worn out.

Proper way is to taper ream the knuckle hole fr. the top down. Then install sleeves to take up the size diff. as the tie-rod is then installed fr. the top down.

Some folks try to do a cheap-over by drilling a straight hole. That will eventually wobble. I doubt the nut is loose but you can try.

If wobble remains., you'll have to remove the tie-rod ends fr. the knuckle & have a look-see as to what was done.

If the hole is not too big...you can prob. taper it & install the sleeves.

(sleeves are avail. at EB stores for this mod.)

At the end of the day...the P/S box (i.e. steering wheel), the tie-rod ends, & the draglink should have "0" play.

If the movement is in the tie-rod sealed joint itself & the castle nut doesn't wiggle., you will need a new tie-rod (one side or both)

Once the tie-rod ends are snug... the drag link won't rotate.

"There is definitely a bushing at each joint."

Not sure what this means.. RU refering to the rubber dust boots..? If so., they do nothing but stop dust.

 

[monza]

Bully Bob

Ahhh..,

Now we're gett'n somewhere..!

Agreed.

If the shaft part that goes thru the knuckle hole (with castle nut on it) is wobbling in that hole...it's likely it was not set-up right., or it's worn out.

Proper way is to taper ream the knuckle hole fr. the top down. Then install sleeves to take up the size diff. as the tie-rod is then installed fr. the top down.

Some folks try to do a cheap-over by drilling a straight hole. That will eventually wobble. I doubt the nut is loose but you can try.

As far as I can tell the shaft is NOT wobbling. The thread with castle nut is solid - no wiggle.

At the end of the day...the P/S box (i.e. steering wheel), the tie-rod ends, & the draglink should have "0" play.

I have play at both ends and the drag link junct. /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

If the movement is in the tie-rod sealed joint itself & the castle nut doesn't wiggle., you will need a new tie-rod (one side or both)

I think this is my problem (

I am going to grab a short vid and see if I can post for you to check.

"There is definitely a bushing at each joint."

Not sure what this means.. RU refering to the rubber dust boots..? If so., they do nothing but stop dust.

What this means is I am stoopid - Its the dust boot - not bushing. :blush:

Video - or pict sequence in next 30 mins.

Monza. [-o<

 

[monza]

Movies attached - I hope.

I have removed castle nuts so shaft is clearer.

Moving p.side rod end by hand

Moving drag link joint by hand

Steering p.side rod end

Steering d.side rod end

let me know what u think.

Thx,

Monza. [-o<

end_move_hand.MOV

dragjoint_move_hand.MOV

p_side_end_steer.MOV

d_side_end_steer.MOV

 

[Bully Bob]

They came thru (I'm sure fine) except they req. me to download an Apple (Mac) program to view.... not sure I want to do that....

Maybe someone else can view & in the mean time I'll PM someone who knows these & can view.

--------- I'm thinking it was Sbolt19 who was the expert on steering mods -------

 

[monza]

They came thru (I'm sure fine) except they req. me to download an Apple (Mac) program to view.... not sure I want to do that....

Maybe someone else can view & in the mean time I'll PM someone who knows these & can view.

Hey Bob - added as youtube links - hope that works... Monza. h34r: /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

P.side move by hand >> "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTNp4tUfUUA"

dragjoint move by hand >> "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTBwPtNOoRA"

D.side steering >> "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SiPYF-TI_g"

P.side steering >> "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqEEkDI9kfg"

 

[Bully Bob]

OK..!

Fr. what I see.., the tie rods ends have slop.., & are likely worn. I assume & believe you said they did the same with the castle nut on & tight.

There should be no play/movement side to side there under normal input fr. the box.

It should move as one piece.

The drag link can rotate like that (front to back) it's a sealed ball joint. However it should not wiggle moving it side to side (push/pull) in its normal position.

I can rotate my drag link which in turn moves/rotates all 4 joints somewhat., (both ends, the drag joint, & at the pitman arm) but, it takes both hands & a lot of pressure to move them, as it should be.

They just don't/shouldn't wobble/shift with side to side energy applied via the pitman arm.

P.S. If I were you., I'd talk to Sbolt19 on this site... Re: the Heim joint set-up (tie rod over) B/4 spending any $$ on any more stock parts.

Changing to "tie rod over" can cause handling issues. He knows a source (for Heim set-up) & knows the pit-falls, what to look out for, on any tie rod over.., stock or Heim..!

Having said that., the size of the holes (already drilled) in the knuckles would be the determining factor.

 

[Bully Bob]

I found S_bolt19's post

Type in "Heim joints" in the search box upper right on this home page.

10th post down. As I recall the price was pretty good.

Toms Br. Parts has this set-up as well.

Depending on the condition of your drag link & tie rod...this may be the way to go for just a bit more $$

AND/OR

http://www.bcbroncos.com

This is the site with the products & info.

 

[monza]

I read S_Bolts19's excellent post (http://broncozone.com/topic/15872-stone-crusher-steering-upgrade/).

Best fix would be a new Heim setup - BUT I was hoping not to have to shoot $300+ on this...

I need to figure out what to check to see whether its a bad TRO install thats causing the wobble.

How do I take this al apart and check each piece ?

Maybe I need shims in there ?

Maybe the Ball joints are bad and the rod ends are fine ?

Maybe I should flip it back and add a drop pitman ?

I am hoping there is a lower cost item that can fix this - UNTIL I can afford to renew the whole linkage with Stonecrusher or Bulletproof Heims.

Hopefully S_Bolt will lend an opinion.

Monza. [-o<

 

[Bully Bob]

"I need to figure out what to check to see whether its a bad TRO install thats causing the wobble.

How do I take this al apart and check each piece?"

You can't..! The tie rod ends are all one piece... permanently attached to the tie rod.

You can "pickle fork" the attach shaft out of the knuckle hole once the castle-nut is off. (they look loose enough to pop out by hand thou)

You need to see how that hole was drilled in there anyway.

"Maybe I need shims in there?"

Won't help the ball joint inside the perm. joint.

"Maybe the Ball joints are bad and the rod ends are fine?"

again., all one unit. i.e. ends not rebuildable.

---UPDATE-- If by chance., you have the aft. mkt. tie rod with adj. sleeve/clamps on BOTH ends... you could get the ends only.

"Maybe I should flip it back and add a drop pitman?"

Not likely as the drilled out holes in the knuckles would creat a lot of slop.

"I am hoping there is a lower cost item that can fix this - UNTIL I can afford ......"

There is...., A new tie-rod.

Again., if those tie rod ends wiggled side to side & the shaft with castle nut remained motionless...the insides of the tie rods are shot.

If the shaft is moving...it's a "Rube Goldberg" installation. i.e. its poss. he drilled it & didn't bother putting in the sleeves.

YAH., you need to pop'm out so as to know what to do next.

 

[monza]

YAH., you need to pop'm out so as to know what to do next.

Dang.

SO - do I need some kind of "pickle fork" tool - is that a specialist tool or can i get it at Kragen ?

I think I also heard maybe of using a puller... I havent got one of those either tho... )

I dnt have sleeve at both ends - so its going to be either:

1. new standard tie rod

2. new heim rod and drag

If I get a new standard tie rod - do i need the 'pickle fork' to disconnect the drag link ?

I feel another project coming on...

fricken...nickers... /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[Bully Bob]

You can prob. rent'um (pickle-forks) for free at most auto parts. If not., they're cheap., I think Harbor Frt. even has them.

Don't buy anything (parts) 'til you get the two ends & the pitman arm connection out.

Actually., it's a good sign they're tight...could mean they were drilled properly. But you could put the castle nut on 3/4 of the way...& wack the nut with a wood or rawhide mallet. If it doesn't pop out aft. one/two hits.., give up & get the pickle forks...(there's a couple sizes & usually come in a set)

Yah., the pickle-fork goes right where that rubber seal is & it will get destroyed but cheap at auto parts.

Gotta get a good look at the hole he drilled, fr. the top down, in the knuckle arms & if he put tapered sleeve/shims in there....

Then you'll know what to buy.

Once it's off., it's easy going back together.

"I feel another project coming on..."

Hay.., when have you ever had this much fun...? /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[monza]

Right then, sounds like a plan;

you hold it and I'll hit it! :lol:

back in a bit.

Monza >-

 

[monza]

Okay Bob,

I pickled the tie rod off. /

Both ends move around in the captive socket - much more than the drag link 'end'.

I figure they are shot.

I managed to get two shims from each knuckle.

The interior of the knuckle hole is still smooth - and feels like there is a 'liner' in there - maybe another shim.

So heres what I have:

Two sloppy rod ends.

A tight drag link end.

A tight pitman end.

Two shims removed from each knuckle - the shims were stacked inside each other.

Knuckles still feel as tho they are sleeved or shimmed.

The Knuckles have a larger diameter on TOP and smaller on Bottom.

I only managed to get one shim out of the drag link joint - is that standard ?

I have attached pics of all pieces.

I think (??) all i need do is order a new tie rod with both ends... [-o<

BUT - I am not sure if I should order new shims - and what size... - whaddaya think.

lmk,

Monza.

pics attached:

 

[Bully Bob]

Excellamente...!!! ....Good job..!!!

"I figure they are shot."

Yep..!

"Two shims removed from each knuckle - the shims were stacked inside each other."

That's interesting..maybe the guy had a machine shop or access to one.

"I only managed to get one shim out of the drag link joint - is that standard ?"

Again., interesting..didn't know there was one in there..?

--UPDATE-- Beings the rod was flipped to go on top..it would have been drilled & sleeved as well.....!!!!

"The Knuckles have a larger diameter on TOP and smaller on Bottom."

That's a good thing..!!

"I think (??) all i need do is order a new tie rod with both ends..."

I agree..!!

What I would suggest...clean the sleeves & the least worn shaft (that had the castle nut on it).

You'll have to use your good judgment here...slip the sleeves (maybe with a little light oil) onto the shaft & see if you're comfortable with the fit. Same for the drag link connection joint.

If they fit OK then.., "YES" all you need is a driver & passenger side tie rod set.

You have the coupler & I assume it's in good shape.

Assume the connection at the pitman arm is snug.

I'm thinking those sleeves will be just fine.

The guy did it right in the sense of "safty" but I'm guessing he engineered it himself so those sleeves are prob. unique. However the new, or even good used tie rod joint shaft should fit right in.

If this lasts forever..great..!! Or., you can change it down the road if you need to or just want to.

And this won't "rip your Wallet"..!!!

 

[Bully Bob]

One other test..!

Beings we don't know the source of these parts (tie rod) on there...,(99% chance it's early Bronco) it wouldn' hurt to measure the bolt end (where the castle nut goes on) & the thickness of that shaft where it meets the tie rod.

Also measure on center, fr. joint on dr. side to drag link attach point on the tie rod.

Maybe even the large opening in the drag link attach point.

---UPDATE..!!--- As stated in post above., this hole was taper drilled (that's why there's a sleeve).., so the "NEW" tie rod would have to be taper drilled...OR...this is NOT doable..!!

Point being measure things that would be helpful insuring your supplier is sending the correct tie rod. i.e. not shipping things back-n-forth. (some folks swap in F-150 tie rods)

If he made things at home.., The sleeves may be unique to ea. hole. No biggie, just have to get'm back in the one they came out of if poss.

 

[monza]

this hole was taper drilled (that's why there's a sleeve).., so the "NEW" tie rod would have to be taper drilled...OR...this is NOT doable[/u]..!!

Oh brother you hit the nail with that.

I figure a new set of ends with a new pair of shims - will cover me - BUT I had not realized that the DL joint had been drilled and sleeved - balls! :angry:

What is the drilling process ? do I need one of those $90 taper drills - or do I use a regular drill and sleeves ?

I am sooooooo glad u picked this up.

Time to call TBP.

Monza.

 

[Bully Bob]

"What is the drilling process? do I need one of those $90 taper drills - or do I use a regular drill and sleeves?"

You'd have to use a taper drill to do it right (so there's no wobble).

The sleeve you took out should be able to be re-used... assuming it's in good shape.

Yah.., TBP will be helpful. --OR-- Wild horses in Stockton.

 

[monza]

TBP came up with a brilliant solution:

Buy two p.side ends and an adjustable sleeve.

Cut the existing rod at d.side and get it threaded for the adj sleeve.

Much cheaper

Ajustable both sides

Keep existing DL tapered joint - no drilling.

Fantastic.

I feel an 'A Team" moment coming on.

Monza. >-