Cant adjust my timing

[89broncodude]

89 Bronco XLT

Hi there, I recently decided to check my timing and found that with the spout on it reads at 30 degrees BTC and with the spout off it reads at about 20.. 

Ive tried adjusting it but whenever I plug the spout back in afterwards the timing stays at 30 degrees....

Im not too familiar with setting the timing on these newer rigs but from what i gather you have to pull the spout off and then set the timing so the computer dosent adjust. 

Could this be an issue with the tfi? Ive recently been running into issues with this truck the main issue being that it runs really bogged down. Also it just started with the ticking sounds when im driving( not in idle)

Ive recently replaced TPS,EGR Sensor,EGR, O2 sensor , IAC Valve,and  Cleaned the crap out of the TB.

Any help would be appreciated since the mechanics apparently have no idea what im talking about  (       :angry:   :angry:  It looks like im gonna have to be fixing this myself...

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

Let's begin with Setting the timing by Ryan M @ http://www.fuelinjectedford.com/page71.html

Yes, you are correct, pull spout off and then set the timing.

Check it out & compare to your process.

 Bookmark his retrieved site for future use.

°

Next is try a Self Test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)s by my pal, BroncoJoe19

@ http://broncozone.com/topic/14269-code-reader/?pid=74587&mode=threaded

A helper can assist you by counting the codes. Some use their smart phones to record them.
BEWARE OF FAN, BELTS, PULLEYS, HOT HOSES, IGNITION HIGH TENSION WIRES, AND ENGINE COMPONENTS

The engine temperature must be greater than 50° F for the Key On Engine Off (KOEO) Self-Test and greater than 180° F for the Key On Engine Running (KOER) Self-Test.

Run it around to heat the engine up and shift thru all gears including Reverse.
Make sure A/C is off and transmission is in Park (automatic); or in Neutral for a Manual & release clutch.
Then turn off engine, all accessories/lights (close driver's door) , etc.

Do KOEO test First. Post Code(s) here according to KOEO  & KOER.
°

Some no code usual suspects by Ford;

Vacuum leak, See  my vacuum leak test in post #20  @ http://broncozone.co...de-44/?p=125535

One way to do a quick check is to grab a vacuum gauge. Bring the engine to normal operating temperature. Connect gauge to the intake manifold tee. BEWARE OF FAN, BELT, PULLEYS & HIT ENGINE. 
The vacuum gauge should read steady between 15 and 22 in-Hg 

One indication of a large leak is when air conditioned air flow comes out through defroster vents instead of dash vents.

...
Air filter, is it relatively clean?
Air inlet atop radiator support to filter box and to throttle body; look for obstruction; damaged tubing, 
Fuel quality; Oxidized fuel often turns darker over time and may even smell sour. You can check stored gasoline by pouring some into a clear glass container and comparing it side-by-side with known fresh gasoline. If your old sample looks noticeably darker than the fresh gas, you have strong evidence the gas has gone bad.
Electrical connectors; inspect at coil, firewall, PCM, etc. especially those with broken locking tabs.

 •

May need to test fuel pressure.

Bronco Fuel pressure:
Running: 30-45psi
Key on engine off: 35-45psi
Attach test lead to FP lead on self test connector. Make sure test lead is long enough to reach work area under vehicle

Grounding the FP lead at the connector will allow the pump to run continuously with the ignition switch on.

-Turn key to RUN position
-Ground test lead and read gauge.

°

GL!

Al

 

[89broncodude]

Thanks for the info (in this thread and all the others /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Well after I finally decided to get down and dirty and replace my oil pan gasket I noticed my coolant leak. The major oil leak I had before made it hard to notice the coolant. So I changed out my bottom radiator hose. Leak was still going so I changed out my water pump...still coming! Turns out the timing chain cover gasket has been the culprit the whole time...pulled it off this morning and after inspecting the timing chain I noticed that the crank and cam gears are off by about 3-4 teeth. Gonna go pick up new chain and gears tommorow. The cam gear is one of those ones with those plastic/rubber teeth. I don't claim to be a mechanic by any means but something in my gut tells me that those can't be to reliable lol. I'm hoping this is what was behind my timing issue. It's starting to get real cold up here in Idaho and all I have to work under is my carport so it would be nice if my issues with the bronco would take a break lol.

 

[89broncodude]

P.s. fuel pressure is all good now. I've changed out both the pumps /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

I'll post an update tommorow.

 

[89broncodude]

Sorry about the delay. I've been working alot lately. So I have a few updates.

I changed out the dizzy,tfi module, ignition coil and now the truck idle is fluctuating like crazy and will stall out after a minute running. I did notice that it won't stall with the spout out, although it still idles extremely rough. I thought that maybe I messed the timing up by not being careful enough marking the previous position of the rotor, but I did the old finger in cylinder. 1 and it wasn't off by enough that would matter...maybe a 1/4 inch probably less.

I decided for some random reason to check the tps (replaced a few months the ago)I'm getting proper voltage in and out but when turning the switch the voltage wasn't fluctuating like it should. It stayed at .4v which is way to low from what I've read. (Freaking duralast!) It has a lifetime warranty on it so I'll be picking the new one up tommorow. I'm hopeful that this has been my problem.

Also ive developed this weird notice that I can only describe as "chains dragging or shaking screws in a can". I tell you, if it's not one thing with my bronco lately it's another.

The only code I'm pulling at the moment is 34 which I believe means the evp sensor voltage is to high or the egr is missing. I just replaced both egr and sensor. I bought the egr at autozone and the sensor at NAPA because autozone apparently dosent carry the sensor. I've recently read that sometimes there can be "cross brand" issues. Do you think the egr could be causing some of my issues? I noticed that the vacuum line to the egr is actually blowing air out rather than sucking. I really don't know ow much about the egr.

I'll attempt to check for a vacuum leak tommorow (thanks for the link)I'll admit, all of these vacuum lines are a bit Intimidating to me. I couldn't even find the source of the green vacuum line for the egr. It looks like it goes under the engine or behind.

The air filter is ok...I cleaned the crap out of it with starter fluid a while back but I could definately use a new one (K&N).

"Air inlet atop radiator support to filter box and to throttle body; look for obstruction; damaged tubing, "- I'm not to sure what this is. I will do some research on it tommorow.

Also the gas looked good when I changed out the in line pump. And the relay tests good.

Once again, I appreciate any help or advice, can't thank you guys enough on this forum /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[89broncodude]

Looking back on what I posted I realized I failed to list some of my symptoms and truck info. 89 bronco xlt 5.0L E40D. The main issue I've been having the whole time is the truck has been running really bogged down. Almost like it's in the lowest gear possible at all times. If I want to accelerate I have to gun it.I was going about 70mph on the freeway the other day and tried switching to OD and it started shaking and shuddering like crazy...That's why I thought it was a timing issue originally....

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

Spark w/SPOUT Connector Un-Plugged, but Falters 

It seems that the insulation around many PIP sensors breaks down prematurely - a condition that leads to shorting of the wires leading to the TFI ignition module. I always replace a PIP sensor along with a defective ignition module, if it has "soft" insulation...
With SPOUT connector Unplugged to check base timing, with the engine running at base timing, it never dies. Unfortunately, this pointed me back to the PCM as a possible cause of my fault. But, when I plugged the SPOUT connector back together, I could make the engine falter and die by gently twisting the harness. Yes! I was sure I had located the fault, and I was right. Look at the figure with the yellow spark output signal wire that is without a section of insulation. This section happens to run through a shield ground that provided a convenient ground source for the SPOUT signal. 
Pic at http://broncozone.com/topic/25860-will-only-start-with-spout-connector-out/

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

Have to enter one thing ata time due to error messages!

---

DTC 34 - EGR voltage above closed limit - Failed sensor, carbon between EGR pintle valve and seat holding the valve off its seat. Remove the EGR valve and clean it with carbon remover. Prior to re-installing see if you can blow air through the ****** side of the EGR by mouth. the egr is not closing properly which can cause detonation. remove the egr and clean off any carbon built up on it with carb cleaner and a brush if necessary. 
Source: by miesk5 

JOwens has an easier test, "all you really need is a piece of vacuum tube. remove egr valve, attach vacuum line, **** on the open end, look at the bottom of the egr valve to make sure the pintle moves and hold vacuum on the line to make sure it doesnt leak down and close. thats pretty much all you need to do there. You can clean the insides up with brake kleen to get all the gunk out of it. It will make it move alot easier."
Prior to re-installing see if you can blow air through the ****** side of the EGR by mouth. the egr is not closing properly which can cause detonation. remove the egr and clean off any carbon built up on it with carb cleaner and a brush if necessary. 
==========

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

EGR Valve Tube Removal Tip in an 89; "...BE CAREFUL HERE. USE PENETRATING FLUID HERE PRIOR TO REMOVAL of the tube. i BROKE ONE ON MY LAST BRONCO AND I HAD TO BUY A NEW ONE FROM THE DEALER FOR ALMOST $100..." Source: by Waltman 
"...If you plan on replacing yours go buy a 1 1/16 wrench you'll need it to get the egr pipe off the egr itself..." 
Source: by Bobby (blue) 

EGR Valve Stuck open will act like a vacuum leak and cause a rough idle and stalling. 

 

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

EGR Valve Position (EVP) sensor sits atop the EGR valve & monitors the position of the EGR valve pintle. The EVP sensor converts the mechanical movement of the pintle into an electrical voltage signal which is relayed to the PCM.

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/23-technical-write-ups/218407-egr-valve-position-evp-sensor-testing-replacement.html by Seattle FSB

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

Run a temporary vacuum line to EVP to EVR where the green line used to be.

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

Air inlet is the tubing from atop grille to air filter to throttle body.

---

 

[89broncodude]

Yo,

EGR Valve Position (EVP) sensor sits atop the EGR valve & monitors the position of the EGR valve pintle. The EVP sensor converts the mechanical movement of the pintle into an electrical voltage signal which is relayed to the PCM.[/size]

http://www.fullsizebronco.com/forum/23-technical-write-ups/218407-egr-valve-position-evp-sensor-testing-replacement.html by Seattle FSB

OK that makes alot of sense now. Do you think it would be safe to use a 3 way vacuum splitter off the line coming from the intake(one that leads to MAP sensor?). When I changed the egr awhile back the tube came off the egr itself no problem, but I had a **** of a time getting it to fit back into the other tube coming from the intake itself. I've noticed that it seems to leak a bit of exhaust from the connection point....

 

[89broncodude]

Yo,

Spark w/SPOUT Connector Un-Plugged, but Falters 

It seems that the insulation around many PIP sensors breaks down prematurely - a condition that leads to shorting of the wires leading to the TFI ignition module. I always replace a PIP sensor along with a defective ignition module, if it has "soft" insulation...

With SPOUT connector Unplugged to check base timing, with the engine running at base timing, it never dies. Unfortunately, this pointed me back to the PCM as a possible cause of my fault. But, when I plugged the SPOUT connector back together, I could make the engine falter and die by gently twisting the harness. Yes! I was sure I had located the fault, and I was right. Look at the figure with the yellow spark output signal wire that is without a section of insulation. This section happens to run through a shield ground that provided a convenient ground source for the SPOUT signal. 

Pic at http://broncozone.com/topic/25860-will-only-start-with-spout-connector-out/

Well I'm thinking it can't be the PIP sensor because I just installed a new dizzy. I assume PCM=EEC IV right? Ill try shorting it out like you did tonight. I'm sure this computer is stock and from what I've heard they kind of degrade over time...I'm not sure if I follow you about the yellow wire...are you saying it's coming from the spout to the PCM?

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

Yes, PCM=EEC IV, aka computer 

Take vacuum from vacuum tank.  It stores vacuum for devices to alleviate low vacuum during acceleration, etc.

Test the EGR valve, and look for a vacuum leak especially on bottom of the vacuum tank, aka coffee can on passenger side.  

some distributor re-manufacturers do not replace the PIP.  May need to have it testedif all other tests are completed and those issues are fixed.

the yyellow wire may be yelloyellow/dark green.   My tablet is dead slow so I cant open the 89 EVTM to check.  It may be in the harness to the distributor. 

 

[89broncodude]

Yo,

Yes, PCM=EEC IV, aka computer 

Take vacuum from vacuum tank.  It stores vacuum for devices to alleviate low vacuum during acceleration, etc.

Test the EGR valve, and look for a vacuum leak especially on bottom of the vacuum tank, aka coffee can on passenger side.  

some distributor re-manufacturers do not replace the PIP.  May need to have it testedif all other tests are completed and those issues are fixed.

the yyellow wire may be yelloyellow/dark green.   My tablet is dead slow so I cant open the 89 EVTM to check.  It may be in the harness to the distributor. 

So I got the new tps but found I wasn't getting the 12v from the green wire like I should be...which was weird because the old one was getting the full 12v....if it's another defective part Im going to swear off duralast....
I decided to check out the connection between the harness and the pcm (eec IV I believe) and I found what I'm pretty sure is corrosion build up on a few of the pins(pcm)and a lot in the ports on the female side(wiring harness) it almost looks like some sort of anti-corrosion lubricant but I'm not sure....any ideas?

It looks like you can take the female connector off the wiring harness and replace it pretty easily but I'm having a hard time finding the piece online and I have no idea what to even call it lol. Any ideas?

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

Looks as if my reply yesterday was trashed.

Pin sources have dried up, check local yards.

See How the EEC Computer Connector Comes Apart @ http://www.fuelinjectedford.com/page74.html

How to clean EEC IV J3 port which is similar to cleaning the pins @

http://www.fuelinjectedford.com/page77.html

 

[89broncodude]

After looking at it again I figured out I was rushing to judgement and it wasn't corrosion. 

I replaced my egr vacuum regulator after testing it and found it had no ohm resistance. Replaced the egr, black TAD&TAB(couldn't find source of yellow and peach lines), and the red vacuum regulator vacuum lines. 

I plugged the ground back in and let it idle for 15 minutes. Drove it around its still running like crap and idle is still fluctuating.went to pull codes again (engine on) and it revs for a minute and dies out in middle of test. 

I'm about ready to give up and take it to the shop. I'm really worried about the rattling sound I'm hearing when accelerating.

 

[miesk5]

Yo,

RATTLING may be spark knock due to over advanced timing.  Some of the causes of this condition are improper fuel octane, engine overheating, improper ignition timing, the EGR valve not functioning properly and problems with the computer or knock sensor. All these conditions can cause the air fuel mixture in the cylinders to ignite before it’s supposed to. This creates multiple flame fronts in the cylinder fighting each other and causing the pinging and rattling noise. Check your owner’s manual to make sure you’re using the right grade of fuel. Or you can switch to a higher grade for a period and see if the noise goes away.