Starter Relay

[madmaysey]

im guessing its really low, but i F'd up my ignition switch and instead of fixing it im just going around it...i already tried it, it works im not looking for comments on how stupid this is...the ignition switch works up until the the starter relay, so you still need the key to put the bronco in run position

now that is out of the way im running 12v right off the battery to the switch then the switch to the relay....i was thinking put a fuse in between the switch and the relay, but what size?

do i want a diode too?

any help?

 

[madmaysey]

oh yea and where is the best spot to penetrate the firewall?

and while im at it opinions on the best spot for the toggle switch to go, not worried it being hidden....but include that in your opinion if you think i should be, conveince is good for me

 

[Seabronc]

OK, I won't tell you how dumb I think that is /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> . A 5 amp fuse should do and place it before the wire penetrates the fire wall. If you make a hole for the wire use a rubber grommet to prevent chafing and shorting. You may be able to go through with the vacuum line to the heater controls If you have A/C.

Good luck,

>-

 

[madmaysey]

so fuse right after the battery in the engine compartment?

i will probably just drill my own hole i was just hoping for an easier way, and a rubber grommet is a must /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> thanks though

i am all ears for why its a bad idea actually...you think it will get stolen easier or something, because i still need the key to turn on the power to the bronco...

 

[madmaysey]

did mean to come off offencive or anything, i was just thinking that because i saw alot of comments when i searched this topic, and most of the cons i didn't agree with. I am i going to run into any ground shorts, is the switch gonna fail and cause the starter to grind to death?

 

[Big_Ford_POS]

:blink: What?...... Why? How bad is it messed up? Did you mess up the column with the tumbler or just the switch under the dash. Its real easy to replace the switch and if you have to run ONE red wire from the switch to the relay and save alot of headache. I am real picky with things working in my truck though and some people don't care i guess...

 

[Seabronc]

Since you are now willing to listen to alternatives, did you say that you have 12V from the switch at the relay on the red with blue stripe wire when the key is in Start position? Can you start the car by jumping the large terminals?

Good luck,

>-

 

[madmaysey]

ok, im not quite sure what your talking about. basically the battery died and while trying to jump it turned the key too far and no longer have the starter contact on my key switch(whatever you call it) (and btw it more complicated that but basically what happened) so finally jump it properly and use a ***** driver across the large terminals with the key in the ignition in the "run" position (the whole key assembly works but the last contact-start contact) hobble home.

come back to it with a switch and some wire, above the 2 large terminals there is a small wire, i think its red and it has a little boot on it attached to a threaded type contact. i pulled that off, turn the key in the bronco to "run postion" took one side of my switch to the 12+ side of the battery and the other side to the threaded post(where the boot was above the large contacts) hit my switch and the starter started starting, 2 turn overs and it was running. turned the switch off...eventually turned the bronco off too

i took care of the battery issue also which was just a matter of cleaning the posts and wires...so battery is good and bronco starts....

now i want to put that same switch that i test inside the cabin so i dont have to pop the hood everytime i want to start it....

im not jumping the 12+ directly to the starter, i don't want to deal with that much current, especailly when everything is running fine.

if everyone was able to follow that, you'd think i should be able to pull the same gauge wire that was on that boot right?

another concern i have it getting my 12+ directly from the battery.

this fix cost me 0.99 cents the cost of the switch, plus i like the idea of starting the bronco with a switch, so this is the route i want to take unless i am missing something and it is indeed a foolish idea.

any ideas, comments or opinions?

Please

and

Thank you /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[madmaysey]

just to clear up one last bit of confusion, because i saw it on another thread. the wire with the boot is red with a blue stripe.

how much voltage does the coil need?

should i be using a resister?

when the coil collapses its not going to wreck my switch will it?(i dont think so but....)

 

[madmaysey]

i have been reading into it and now im thinking is there a better spot to tie into the red with blue wire, it is all common though out the wiring?

yellow splice and cut the red and blue right under the dash? will that work?

i dont lose the park, neutral safety either

 

[BLADE262US]

The coil in the starter relay shouldnt even pull 1/2 amp . That is why the wire ( red w/blue ) is able to be such small guage it doesnt carry much current . That wire runs from the fuse box to the key switch to the neutral safety switch on the tranny finally ending up at the starter relay . It doesnt matter where the wire gets hooked as long as it have 12 volts to it . You could hook 1/0 to the battery and touch it to the starter ING post and it isnts going to draw any more or less amperage that it would if you had hooked 22 guage to it . If you look at alot of your bump buttons they are small guage wire and one hooks to the positive side or feed side of the starter relay and the other wire hooks to the ING post when you push the button power flows from feed side through switch to the ING post causing the big washer in the solenoid to pull down and divert power to the stater . You wont see the flyback voltage in this application so no need for a diode you could put on on if you wanted but no need if you do the band side of the diode would go to the red w/blue wire and the other end of the diode would go to the ING post . But again no need . You say the starter switch works up until the relay so are you saying you have 12 volts at that red w/blue wire in the crank position of the key ? If this is true either the starter relay is bad or you have a poor ground which it gets form the 2 bolts that hold it ot the fender well . I would check that if you do have power on the red w/blue during crank . If you dont Id go to the neutral safety on the tranny and check for it on both sides see if you have 12 volts there if its going in and coming out then you may have a bad section of wire between the neutral safety and the starter relay . I would check that stuff before adding buttons and switches . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[madmaysey]

almost got it, the crank position is gone...i went from being able to turn the key into the crank position too not being able to and i felt it break. all the positions before the start "crank" position work.

i can jump 12+ to the "ING" post and it starts if i have the key in the "run" position....i can also jump the 12+ terminal on the relay to the solnoid and it starts....the problem is the "crank" position contact. i understand how a relay works, unless this one is differant, normally you create a electromagnitic field that pulls in the contact right? in this case your "big washer?"

im confused is the relay and the solnoid one and the same thing or does the relay feed the solnoid down at the starter?

and if the relay works like the relays im used to when you break that coil field there is a spike and its going to go somewhere, the switch im not too worried about, but the same circut is common with the nuetral safety switch isnt it? and what about my ignition switch(the key turner tumbler thingie) is that sensitive to spikes, its possible the spike could be well over 12+ also, almost no current but voltage non the less....

 

[madmaysey]

so i looked under the steering column and found a yellow and a red with a blue stripe wire. can i splice into the yellow and cut the red w blue and put that to my switch? instead of going through the firewall and landing on the battery post and relay?

if that would work, i would think that no diode or resister would be nessary because it would already be somehwere in the circut seeing as thats where the voltage is starting anyway right?

 

[BLADE262US]

I wouldnt splice into anything whats wrong with changing the arm on the back of the key switch that would be the correct way to fix this . You dont have to worry about flyback in this circuit because as soon as you let the key go from crank position that red w/ blue is now an open circuit that goes nowhere and the neautral safety is not suseptable to a voltage spike like your talking I work in industrial automation and am very aware of what your saying about the flyback current kinda the same principle that produces the spark for our plugs . Ford doesnt use a solenoid on the starter and yes relay / solenoid are the same reference I was making . Be careful cutting yellow wires or probing them in the 92 and up vehicles yellow is the air bag circuit I think . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[BLADE262US]

Also dont know if you realized it yet or not but the key switch doesnt have any real important wires in it maybe one for the anoying buzzer if you leave your keys in the ignition but the tumbler thingie as you say is like a little rack and pinion that connects to a rod that runs down the top of the steering column to the actual ignition switch . You can buy that little piece that the rod connects too at the tumbler thingie in most parts stores in the HELP parts . Its not that bad to change then you wont have a bunch of splices or cobling going on /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[madmaysey]

i definatly agree with you, its not the right way, but it seems alot easier and if there is no major problems with it then its a perfectly fit alternative for me.

As far as the important wires thing goes, maybe not, but there is a some important things that happen when that key is turned. the one that i am noticing the most is with the key in the crank position the rest of the car goes dead to dedicate everything to the starter motor. this is not happening for me, im thinking i am gonna have to get down with a SPDT relay and match everything that has continuity to what is supposed to have it when the starter is being pulled. fuel pump and ignition system im thinking, but i have seen a harness blade diagram that explains everything that happens a bunch of times on the forum.

in my opinion i think this route is alot easier than pulling the steering wheel off and dismantling the column. if i have to run 2 even 3 wires though the firewall and drill and hole to mount the switch...it way easier

if i could grab the yellow(dont think it would be disconnected, i would just be tapping into to it) and the red and blue from directly under the steering wheel, thats way way easier...if anything i will just have the switch tied into a relay that kills the radio(main draw of power, i think) while the switch is switched thats not a big deal, and even if not its something i can live with.

and as for the the switch being disconnected up at the inginition switch doesnt meant the current is being discharged off that coil anyway, if its disconnected at the ignition switch thats were the the flyback will end but it will travel though everything until that point ei. the neutral saftey switch and whatever else is in series

now im not saying the voltage will be high enough to cause a problem to this perticular application, but i am modifying something that was ment to work a certain way, if i run right off the battery and to the ing post on the relay, then when the coil collapses the flyback will come back though my switch, thats why im here asking if anyone knows that will happen, if i have to wreck a switch finding out that i need a diode no big deal i got it from work anyway because i work in a semiconductor fab building...you guessed it automated control systems in an industral setting /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> im practically an electrial engineer, hopefully will be one in not so many years.

i understand the tumbler and how it connects to the rod, and i know whats broken, i like the idea of having this switch and so far i dont see anything devistating happening if i use it. does anyone have any knowledge that i should know?

its an 88 so no air bag /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

if it was an airbag i probably wouldnt be going down this route at all....(thats what i say now, but im addicted to challenges)

back to the coil discharge for one more second, since it would be my switch that is supplying the coil, thats where the fly back stops, if i fixed the connecting rod or realligned the contact, the flyback would still go back to that point, unless ford stuck a device protecting against this somewhere in the circut, or all the shit is tough enough and the coil discharge isn't enough that ford didn't care.

but ford made a circut that is alot longer than mine....thats all resistance, which means voltage drop by the time it gets to the relay, i am going one stop 6 inches from the battery straight to the relay coil with 6 gauge wire, i noticed that you said it will pull the same no matter what, that is true in most cases, but maybe ford wasn't concerned about it self limiting itself because it knew it would have all this resistance in the circut, and here i am with all this potental.

i really want to grab 12+ from the yellow that is closest to my ignition switch and have the switch turn that 12+ on and off to the starter relay, i don't lose the function of the neutral safety switch and or any other safetys ford has installed for either my person or the electrical circut. it would be like that switch is the now the new "crank" position of my key.

im not saying all this is correct, but it is how i see it and if i am wrong could someone please correct my thinking before i mess something up.

now

 

[madmaysey]

I wouldnt splice into anything whats wrong with changing the arm on the back of the key switch that would be the correct way to fix this . You dont have to worry about flyback in this circuit because as soon as you let the key go from crank position that red w/ blue is now an open circuit that goes nowhere and the neautral safety is not suseptable to a voltage spike like your talking I work in industrial automation and am very aware of what your saying about the flyback current kinda the same principle that produces the spark for our plugs . Ford doesnt use a solenoid on the starter and yes relay / solenoid are the same reference I was making . Be careful cutting yellow wires or probing them in the 92 and up vehicles yellow is the air bag circuit I think . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

not that it matter much at all, and what you say makes more since than the diagrams i was looking at, but i saw a starter relay and a solnoid...? i thought it was odd to have both, but i think thats how i interepted it.

 

[Yardape]

Have you looked at the ignition switch? could be just that simple, you dont have to take the steerng wheel off or take the column apart. Simply remove the plastic trim from under the column, undo the bolts on the column, I think theres 4. the column will drop and you can access the switch. Simply easy fix, no mickey mouse splicing.

 

[madmaysey]

Have you looked at the ignition switch? could be just that simple, you dont have to take the steerng wheel off or take the column apart. Simply remove the plastic trim from under the column, undo the bolts on the column, I think theres 4. the column will drop and you can access the switch. Simply easy fix, no mickey mouse splicing.

that would probably fix my problem. will certainly have to do it if it is indeed that easy. but im still left with the problems i have detailed above with my cool starter switch....its how im gonna pick up ******* guys... /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />