89 Running Bad

[Eric Elcessor]

You all are going to find this desperate, but here it is. This is an 89 5.8. 3 year old crate motor <20,000. Been running great for three years. I use this to hunt. Through summer I go out and start up and recharge battery & occaisionally put new gas in. One day, it started rough and started surging when cold. I did a tune up and ran tests and could not come up with anything. Took to my trusty mechanic, he put it on break out box & decided I was getting a fuzzy sig from the O2 sensor. He replaced and also put new body to frame ground. Its been downhill since. I have replaced (this gets good): Plugs, wire, rotor,cap, coil, EGR, EGR Pos sensor, Map sensor, o2 sensor (again), ICM, PCM, Coolant temp sensor, Air charge temp sensor, fuel filter, inline hi press fuel pump, ALL injectors, Idle air valve, throttle pos sensor and oh yea, vac module on trans (it was bad)... am I a ****** or what. Ive checked pinouts at the pcm for grounds, 12v and sig ref voltages and cleaned the throttle body. Added dry gas etc. Ran it almost empty then put full tank of Shell vpower. Checked all hoses Vacuum is good. Dumps on wide open throttle (indicates ok converter?..6-7 years old), fuel reg at 31 - 34, 40 when disconnected. Checked wiring & did wiggle tests until blue in the face. Running tester puts out a 46 trouble code. Cant switch thermactor. Could this be a converter?

Starting up, it surges terrible. sometimes it gets a breif moment where it sounds as if something kicks in & clears up. Exhaust smells extremely rich. I drive it a while, and the idle gradually settles down. Transition is rough but has breif moments when I punch it. Power is low. Running down highway it exhibits an intermittent miss.. as if not getting enough gas.

I think I fubared the PCM. I was getting a constant O2 lean (41) . The reman PCM fixed that.

Help me somebody!

I'm dying here. I'm supposed to be out bustin deer but instead my beloved is bustin me. Wife's about to do the same!

 

[davidmcg]

You all are going to find this desperate, but here it is. This is an 89 5.8. 3 year old crate motor <20,000. Been running great for three years. I use this to hunt. Through summer I go out and start up and recharge battery & occaisionally put new gas in. One day, it started rough and started surging when cold. I did a tune up and ran tests and could not come up with anything. Took to my trusty mechanic, he put it on break out box & decided I was getting a fuzzy sig from the O2 sensor. He replaced and also put new body to frame ground. Its been downhill since. I have replaced (this gets good): Plugs, wire, rotor,cap, coil, EGR, EGR Pos sensor, Map sensor, o2 sensor (again), ICM, PCM, Coolant temp sensor, Air charge temp sensor, fuel filter, inline hi press fuel pump, ALL injectors, Idle air valve, throttle pos sensor and oh yea, vac module on trans (it was bad)... am I a ****** or what. Ive checked pinouts at the pcm for grounds, 12v and sig ref voltages and cleaned the throttle body. Added dry gas etc. Ran it almost empty then put full tank of Shell vpower. Checked all hoses Vacuum is good. Dumps on wide open throttle (indicates ok converter?..6-7 years old), fuel reg at 31 - 34, 40 when disconnected. Checked wiring & did wiggle tests until blue in the face. Running tester puts out a 46 trouble code. Cant switch thermactor. Could this be a converter?
Starting up, it surges terrible. sometimes it gets a breif moment where it sounds as if something kicks in & clears up. Exhaust smells extremely rich. I drive it a while, and the idle gradually settles down. Transition is rough but has breif moments when I punch it. Power is low. Running down highway it exhibits an intermittent miss.. as if not getting enough gas.

I think I fubared the PCM. I was getting a constant O2 lean (41) . The reman PCM fixed that.

Help me somebody!

I'm dying here. I'm supposed to be out bustin deer but instead my beloved is bustin me. Wife's about to do the same!

Well, you probably don't want to hear this, but.....Running a tank dry and then refilling isn't good. Actually running below a quarter tank is ******* the in-tank pump. It uses the fuel to keep it cool and the higher level of good fuel helps prevent dirt and grime being sucked up or clogging the screen.You replaced the high pressure pump on the rail and it kind of surges right? Sounds as if the in-tank fuel pump is the place to go. Not a lot of fun, at least it hasn't been in my case. I don't have airtools and all of the bolts (8 of them) had to be cutoff with a Dremel zip saw. Also, my duel exhaust was in the way and receiver hitch. If the truck is surging its probably because that in-tank pump isn't getting enough constant fuel supply up to the high pressure pump. Replacing that in-tank pump is not a walk in the park. Other than that, have you looked at the ignition module up on the distributor? Thats no cake walk either. For it you get to pull the distributor and then try to re-stab it back in perfect alignment.

davidmcg

 

[miesk5]

46 ®: Thermactor air unable to dump to atmosphere.

Suspect diverter valve, solenoids, harness

or there is a vacuum leak in the line going to the valve closest from the smog pumps air output

Thermactor (Smog air pump)

This pumps fresh air into the exhaust system, to burn left over hydrocarbons, lowering emissions. The computer uses 2 air valves (TAB & TAD) to control where the air flows depending on engine operation. by Ryan M

Thermactor Air Bypass (TAB) shunts air to the atmosphere, when no air is needed. When air is needed it sends air to the second valve TAD.

Thermactor air Bypass not working Thermactor Air By-Pass (TAB)

The Thermactor Air Bypass solenoid is controlled by the EEC-IV computer and provides vacuum to the Air Bypass/Air Control Valve. With vacuum present, air flows through the secondary air injection system. With no vacuum, the air from the air pump is dumped to the atmosphere. Essentially, this turns the secondary air injection system on or off. The secondary air injection system adds air to the catalytic converter to improve the burning of NOx gases. This reduces emissions.

Secondary Air Injection (AIR) System Diagram, 5.8L

Source: by Steve83

Sensor & Connector, MAP, IAC, TPS, TAD-TAB, TFI Location pics in an 88 5.8

Source: by Travis L at SuperMotors.net

Throttle Air By-Pass Valve (also called Idle Air Bypass (IAB, etc.) Ford part Number; in Vehicle Emission Control Information (VECI) for 88 and up, PUK (49 States) Decal, PGP (Canada) Decal, Vacuum Diagrams & Calibration Parts List for 88 & UP - if hot Link does not take you direct; CLICK Quick Guides Scroll to bottom; Provides Vehicle Emission Control Information (VECI) and a related calibration parts list. Enter applicable info (need to know your Calibration number off of your PCM)

Source: by Ford motorcraftservice.com

 

[Eric Elcessor]

Well, you probably don't want to hear this, but.....Running a tank dry and then refilling isn't good. Actually running below a quarter tank is ******* the in-tank pump. It uses the fuel to keep it cool and the higher level of good fuel helps prevent dirt and grime being sucked up or clogging the screen.You replaced the high pressure pump on the rail and it kind of surges right? Sounds as if the in-tank fuel pump is the place to go. Not a lot of fun, at least it hasn't been in my case. I don't have airtools and all of the bolts (8 of them) had to be cutoff with a Dremel zip saw. Also, my duel exhaust was in the way and receiver hitch. If the truck is surging its probably because that in-tank pump isn't getting enough constant fuel supply up to the high pressure pump. Replacing that in-tank pump is not a walk in the park. Other than that, have you looked at the ignition module up on the distributor? Thats no cake walk either. For it you get to pull the distributor and then try to re-stab it back in perfect alignment.
davidmcg

I ran it dry to try & get the possibility of bad gas out of the system. Don't normally run under that condition. At idle when the surge is occuring, the fuel pressure is dead on. The tank pump has been replaced a number of years ago. That did send me on a wild goose chase back then too. I know that doesnt neccesarily mean it is fully functional. I can hear it operating also. If the surge was due to fuel pressure, I think I would see erratic pressure during idle. Agree? The ICM is brand new. Distributer is back in place properly. Thanks for the insight & response.

 

[Eric Elcessor]

I've checked the vacuum lines to the solenoids and to the diverters. All seems sound. I have removed & plugged the lines to ensure that the diverters are not leaking. I have direct connected them to see that they bypass too. I am not sure what is going on there but I am of the opinion that this would not cause the poor running at idle. It seems that this may be a side issue to what is happening. What do you think? Do you think problems within the cat converter could exhibit this code? i.e air not actually being allowed into the converter? The only test for a converter issue that I know is to watch the vacuum when you open the throttle wide and watch for a vacuum dump.

 

[2NDTOUR89]

You would also notice the cat getting red hot if it were plugged when running it if it were the cat but since you say it smells rich, I hesitate to say it would be the cat. What about a fuel pressure regulator??? Maybe it is allowing too much fuel in? It might cause it to start trying to lean the motor out and cut off fuel supply basically causing the surge you are talking about... This is a good one, I feel for you. I had similar problems with mine after it sat for 4 years and threw quite a few parts at it also and finally got it corrected but all the parts I replaced are on your list with the exception of the fuel pressure regulator...

Let us know how it turns out.. I am intrigued.

 

[miesk5]

I've checked the vacuum lines to the solenoids and to the diverters. All seems sound. I have removed & plugged the lines to ensure that the diverters are not leaking. I have direct connected them to see that they bypass too. I am not sure what is going on there but I am of the opinion that this would not cause the poor running at idle. It seems that this may be a side issue to what is happening. What do you think? Do you think problems within the cat converter could exhibit this code? i.e air not actually being allowed into the converter? The only test for a converter issue that I know is to watch the vacuum when you open the throttle wide and watch for a vacuum dump.

That code is for the therm system; and after that is repaired it will prob run rough

Have the mechanic do another thorough Scan w/his break-out box; maybe call him or see him first and ask if he has done following while testing;

KOEO

KOER

GOOSE TEST (also called a Dynamic Rresponse Test) - read it all; here is what it can do for you; an excerpt..."After a little while, the EEC-IV will begin cutting the injector to each cylinder in turn, and looking for a drop in RPM. If there is no drop associated with any individual cylinder, then there is some problem there (that may or may not be related to the injection system- you could have a valve problem, or a fouled plug, or a shop towel stuck in the intake runner, and get the same effect). This test takes about 90 seconds. If a cylinder is found by this test to be weak, a single-digit code will be flashed telling you which one (1-8).

and

"...A technician that is unfamiliar with the EEC Self-Test can mistakenly believe that continuous Memory codes are not present when they really are. He may run KOER Self-Test and get a pass code (111) and not realize that KOEO Self-Test must be run to receive any Continuous Memory codes. He may run KOEO Self-Test while counting MIL flashes and misinterpret the repeated hard fault pass code (111) to mean that Continuous Memory does not contain any codes. .."Source: by Ford via miesk5

So, some Code may be there if he did not run both KOEO and KOER tests and Goose

also,

Keep Alive Memory (KAM); contains the adaptive factors used by the processor to compensate for component tolerances and wear. It should not be routinely cleared during diagnosis. If an emissions related part is replaced during repair, the KAM must be cleared. Failure to clear the KAM may cause severe driveability problems since the correction factor for the old component will be applied to the new component.

Source: by Chilton via autozone.com

And, check a spark plug or 2...let's see if one is fouled...or leaned out...still thinking of a vacuum leak tho in that therm system...have you tried spraying carb cleaner around there?

gl!

 

[Blue beast]

Run 2 bottles of heet and 2 bottles of iso heet If you only did one bottle of gas line dryer it won't do the trick. With a truck that sits for longer then 90 days you need to add STA-BIL double or triple dose it and then make sure to leave it with a full tank so it will not build up condensation. Does your

mechanic know how to test an o2 sensor there are way too many replaced when they are fine!! I would take the o2 sensor out and hit it with a propane torch if it is burning rich it will foul out the sensor and you will be chasing a never ending problem!! If you have a good multimeter($30. to 40.00 dollar range) find the signal wire(set meter to 1 volt range) and when you put it in the flame it should show you some voltage don't leave it connected just get the voltage and that is all we need it should have been .3 to .8 volts You should see the sensor get cleaner then it was don't go for shining just a 10-20 seconds or so in the flame should do it. Keep it clean while you are doing you diagnostics or it will be a constant wrench in the works, with run rich states keeping the plugs and o2 clean will keep them out of the equation. Be sure to keep silicone or dielectric grease off the O2 sensors wires and case it has to breathe or it won't work right!! I know you did the gas line dryer but humor me for $8.00 and give it a try, Yo could

pull the fuel filter empty it and press the valve on the rail, fill the filter with heet, reinstall and crank for just a couple of revolutions, let the heet sit

on the injectors for 10 minutes, then start the truck.

 

[Eric Elcessor]

That code is for the therm system; and after that is repaired it will prob run rough
Have the mechanic do another thorough Scan w/his break-out box; maybe call him or see him first and ask if he has done following while testing;

KOEO

KOER

GOOSE TEST (also called a Dynamic Rresponse Test) - read it all; here is what it can do for you; an excerpt..."After a little while, the EEC-IV will begin cutting the injector to each cylinder in turn, and looking for a drop in RPM. If there is no drop associated with any individual cylinder, then there is some problem there (that may or may not be related to the injection system- you could have a valve problem, or a fouled plug, or a shop towel stuck in the intake runner, and get the same effect). This test takes about 90 seconds. If a cylinder is found by this test to be weak, a single-digit code will be flashed telling you which one (1-8).

and

"...A technician that is unfamiliar with the EEC Self-Test can mistakenly believe that continuous Memory codes are not present when they really are. He may run KOER Self-Test and get a pass code (111) and not realize that KOEO Self-Test must be run to receive any Continuous Memory codes. He may run KOEO Self-Test while counting MIL flashes and misinterpret the repeated hard fault pass code (111) to mean that Continuous Memory does not contain any codes. .."Source: by Ford via miesk5

So, some Code may be there if he did not run both KOEO and KOER tests and Goose

also,

Keep Alive Memory (KAM); contains the adaptive factors used by the processor to compensate for component tolerances and wear. It should not be routinely cleared during diagnosis. If an emissions related part is replaced during repair, the KAM must be cleared. Failure to clear the KAM may cause severe driveability problems since the correction factor for the old component will be applied to the new component.

Source: by Chilton via autozone.com

And, check a spark plug or 2...let's see if one is fouled...or leaned out...still thinking of a vacuum leak tho in that therm system...have you tried spraying carb cleaner around there?

gl!

Well, I'm back after a grueling couple of weeks. I have done KOEO and KOER tests ntil blue in the face. During this time I had jumpered wires. Removed the secondary air system and checked everything.. all was fine. While I was working on this, it became apparent that my exhaust was really going bad, so I had a new maxflo put on and had the cat checked while we were at it. While I was BS'ing with the guy putting on the exhaust, I was reviewing what I had doene and how I had checked for vac leaks with carb cleaner. He said, why dont you try starting fluid. It will do just the opposite and improve the running if there was a leak. I thought a little dangerous but what the heck, I was ready to blow my brains out any way.

Well fella, you pretty much had it pegged on vaccuum, but finding it was the bear. , Sure enough, when I sprayed around the intake manifold, I had a response. I pulled the plenum again and checked my once torqued to spec man bolts and sure enough they were loose. I retorqued them and replaced the plenum. The truck ran noticably better. Not great but much better. Soooooooo about a grand later, I'm replacing a couple of 5 dollar gaskets. I have not started this yet but will be soon. I remember felpro made gaskets that you supposedly didnt have to ever retorque but that was years ago and I havent seen the likes lately. Any input/tricks on what I can do to ensure that these dont loosen again?

Thanks for all your input.

 

[Eric Elcessor]

46